The Argument Room
From time to time commenters, who by virtue of their arguments, deserve a place here in the argument room. Our inaugural commenter is whysoserious?, a stalwart who has previously graced this puddle and inspired several posts. He faded into the woodwork after the last episode, but he’s back again with new argument.
The header video notwithstanding, some might consider the argument room a place of dubious distinction. No, it is a place for arguments that require a bit of time to be properly considered and responded to. In some cases the questions or points are good ones, in others the argument presented carries only the veneer of dialectic while packing a load of emotionally driven rhetoric.
Commenters Pode (who has made too many excellent points to single one out), Aardvark and Pothos have all made the grade previously and with the return of whysoserious? I decided to start collecting comments, questions and arguments of high quality in one spot where the readers might find them. Some of the points raised require a bit of time to consider and I’d hate to see the give and take buried and forgotten.
Commenter whysoserious? is still in opposition to the idea that sex with an eligible virgin is to marry her.
Outcome: commenter whysoserious? has created a situation that defeats his own argument. The orthodox view of this issue devolved from the key, intentional mis-translation of “dabaq” in Genesis 2:24, which fully recognized the authority of Genesis 2;24 as authoritative to marriage. With the word “dabaq” properly translated, the meaning is clear so commenter whysoserious? has finally (after multiple different attacks) decided to reject the authority of Genesis 2:24 as decisive when it comes to marriage.
Keep in mind that in challenging the orthodox position, I have been required to rigorously argue the case at every point with an exegesis that is in complete harmony with the rest of Scripture. In a classic case of projection, commenter whysoserious? describes this as “eisegesis”.
However, in rejecting the authority of Genesis 2:24, whysoserious? has likewise chosen to challenge the orthodox position, only in a far more dramatic way: he attempts to throw the baby out with the bathwater. He does so with a decidedly ridiculous argument in which he fails to definitively provide an alternate and creates multiple conflicts with the rest of Scripture. In other words, he fails.
In keeping with Vox Day’s magnificent instructional “SJW’s Always Lie”, whysoserious? has systematically engaged in lying and projection. When called out on it he has doubled down on his ridiculous arguments. Once his arguments are boiled down to their essence, he argues that the Bible contains no definition of marriage and therefore marriage is whatever he claims it is. There are three major problems with this that he cannot overcome.
1. Adultery is a death-penalty crime which is defined as a married woman having sex with a man who is not her husband. According to whysoserious? we have a situation in which God commanded that people be put to death for violating a marriage but He somehow forgot to define what marriage is. In Psalm 19 the psalmist David, speaking in the spirit, said the Law of the Lord is perfect. A perfect Law provides a definition of marriage that will allow one to definitively identify the elements that will make one married every single time.
Whysoserious? claims that isn’t the case. He says:
“The married are married when they are married, just like friends are friends when they are friends, or men are men when they are men. It’s a natural fact.”
An eligible virgin is married when she has sex with an eligible man and after that if the woman has sex with any other man she commits adultery. Two people are friends when they mutually decide to be friends according to whatever criteria they might use, but nobody gets put to death if they get too friendly with someone else following that. Men, of course, are men by virtue of having a “Y” chromosome. The only natural fact in evidence is that whysoserious? is an idiot.
2. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is a judgment stating that if a man rapes a virgin who is not betrothed, if they are discovered, they are married. The only act that has occurred to make the two married is sex and this clears up any doubt on the issue of the virgin’s consent (not required) and other actions (not required). On the basis of absolutely nothing, whysoserious? claims the resulting marriage is “induced by society” and enforced by the State. Based on what? The fact they had sex, nothing else. Otherwise, whysoserious? is claiming the state has the arbitrary authority to simply declare individuals married based on whatever criteria it chooses.
3. In making his claim that there is no Scriptural definition of marriage, whysoserious? rejects Jesus as competent to identify the Scriptural authority on marriage. Rather than the blathering of whysoserious? we have the sure testimony that Jesus, the Word Made Flesh, identified the authority on marriage and quoted it as the defining authority on marriage. Our resident idiot offers no evidence that He didn’t other than his ranting.
Note that commenter whysoserious? has engaged in the following tactics:
- He lies. A lot.
- He has no position to support and thus can only attack a position he does not like. This proves he makes no search for truth but rather attempts to bury the truth.
- He engages in a great deal of projection.
- Through long and ridiculous arguments, he attempts to derail the discussion.
- He doubles down on his idiotic arguments after they’ve been refuted.
- He is not only wrong, his responses have descended to mere contradiction and because of that, he’s boring.
The argument is closed.
Commenter CyberSith1 doesn’t agree with me and thinks I’m living in a fantasy world.
Status: Closed. For refusal to follow instructions and general idiocy, Cybersith1 has now been banned and spammed.
Outcome: Cybersith1 engaged in churchian point and shriek, lied, projected about his fear that his comments would be deleted or changed… and he doubled down on his idiotic lies in the face of evidence to the contrary from women bloggers who refuted his idiocy.
Just in case he was too stupid to understand, I explained it to him:
- Churchians always lie
- Churchians always project
- Churchians always double down.
Cybersith1 claims I’m a liar, so we should look at a clear example of his accusations.
In his 7 points (in italics) that he claims are his purpose for arguing with me here on this blog, I’ll indent my responses:
i will summarize my entire position for all your readers to see, and then they can judge whether you are correct or me
I think that’s an excellent idea!
1: Genesis 3:16 is BOTH a statement and a declarative judgement from God based on Adam and Eve’s sin, it is NOT a command….mankind’s inherited sin nature has resulted in a situation where the sexes will always be in a perpetual war for power
Cybersith1 cites no Scriptural authority for this opinion and demonstrates his ignorance of what a judgment is. Notice that Deuteronomy 6:1 gives the hierarchy: God commands, He provides statutes that implement the command and then He gives judgments regarding specific situations. Judgments have the force of Law in the same way that commands and statutes do. How do we know this? Because God said so twice in Leviticus 18:4-5 where He commanded that His judgments and laws be obeyed.
2: The words “fit to rule” has been added to the original Hebrew by Artisanal Toad for no justification whatsoever, he used EISIGESIS, instead of sound biblical hermeneutics.
Cybersith1 evidently cannot read English, much less Hebrew. This is what I said:
Anyone who desires can compare the text in that screenshot from this link and observe that I did not add anything to the Hebrew text of Genesis 3:16. Oops, it looks like he really got that one wrong. The goal was to get a translation in English that accurately, truthfully reflects the meaning of the Hebrew Text. Some might call this point a lie on the part of Cybersith1, but I think he’s simply too emotional to understand the issue.
3: Women are naturally rebellious towards male authority whether they have “game” or not, this rebellion resulted from Eve’s sin and has been passed down to all future generations…see 1st Timothy 2:12…this command would be utterly redundant if women by nature were submissive
Cybersith1 offers more unsupported blathering for our entertainment. Once again, despite being cautioned to support his assertions, he provides no Scriptural authority to back up his opinions. He claims that women (universally, all women) are naturally rebellious toward male authority as a result of Eve’s sin. Apparently he isn’t intelligent enough to realize this is an extremely easy argument to refute.
If all women are condemned to be naturally rebellious against male authority as a result of Eve’s sin, then there would be nothing any man or woman could do to cause a woman to be submissive. Yet, we have testimonial evidence from women (here and here) that women can be submissive to male authority and submit to their discipline. I provided my own testimony. Since we can observe that women can be submissive, Cybersith1 is incorrect in his assertion.
I provided a different explanation that he cannot accept… that women, by nature, are rebellious to a man they don’t respect and submissive for a man they perceive as being fit to rule over them, as a result of the judgment at Genesis 3:16.
He claims that 1st Timothy 2:12 would be redundant if women were naturally submissive. Really? That instruction (to the male overseers) meant they were not to allow women to teach or exercise authority over men no matter how bad the men were or how good the women were. The entire passage leads to the point that I made previously, that women were to stay in the role they were created for no matter how submissive they are or are not.
4: A man’s “ruling over his wife” must be based on kindness, love and Christ centered, it is not based on using a rod of iron, or fear
Cybersith1 provides even more completely unsupported opinion that is provably wrong. In Ephesians 5:25-27 the husband is commanded to love his wife as Christ loves the church. The only two examples of how Christ loves His church are found at Hebrews 12:5-11 and Revelation 3:19. Let’s go ahead and quote Revelation 3:19:
“Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.”
The husband loves his wife by holding her accountable in order that she might have no spot or blemish. Obedience is following the rules. Submission is accepting accountability for one’s actions and the consequences for violating the rules. Wives are commanded to submit to their husbands. In order for the wives to submit, the husbands must hold them accountable and that means punish them when they intentionally violate the rules. If a husband refuses to hold his wife accountable, his wife cannot submit to him because he is refusing to do his job.
5: Notice the bible says that a woman’s desire is TO her husband, not FOR her husband….this tiny but crucial word changes the entire meaning of the phrase
And, one again, Cybersith1 simply throws out an unsupported opinion, not understanding what he’s saying. According to my view on the passage in question, I like translating wə·’el- as “to” better than I like translating it as “for“. As in “she will be attracted to the man who passes her tests.” However, given that the translation committees for the conservative and well-respected NASB and HCSB have translated it as “for” rather than “to”, he has an uphill battle to fight. Especially since he still has not addressed the major change that the ESV translation just made to this passage that is unsupported by the Hebrew text.
6: a wife’s submission to her husband is NOT conditional on the man fitting any requirements on his behalf, or him passing any “shit” tests she sets for him, or him being “fit to rule”…..this is a lie based on Toad’s philosophy of game, on the contrary, a wife is to submit to her man because Christ told her to PERIOD, that is HER responsibility
This does not absolve the man from taking responsibility to be a loving, caring husband that deserves respect etc, but her obedience is not conditional….Toad wants it to be conditional so he can uphold his “game” philosophy
Actually, I never said a wife’s submission to her husband was conditional. Cybersith1 is free to quote me as saying so and link to it, but hasn’t because he can’t. Because he’s the one who is lying. In fact, I specifically stated the opposite, repeatedly.
7: Devoting an entire blog over at the Argument Room to attacking me personally, instead of refuting me on a biblical basis was uncalled for, and is the very reason you are despised over at biblicalgenderroles blogs…now I know why you’re not welcome there
Wow. A single sub-page is now an entire blog. The butthurt is strong.
The truth is that I wasn’t attacking Cybersith personally, I was showcasing his special flavor of idiocy for the world to see. His problem is he’s evidently unable to read for comprehension in order to understand the real issue and too ignorant to understand that his blathering was refuted, from Scripture. I suspect if he knew even a quarter of what he thinks he knows… he’d be dangerous. As it is, he’s just a butthurt gamma.
The announcement that BGR despises me and I’m not welcome there was enlightening. The man’s been pulling information off this blog, rephrasing it, leaving out critical parts and passing it off as his stuff for a long time now.
Interestingly, Cybersith1 has the same attitude and the same writing style as the author of BGR. After taking a quick peek, I see that he comments there frequently, almost as if he was the authors’ sock puppet. And since he claims I’m “despised” and “not welcome” at BGR it begs the question of how he knows that.
That question brings up the issue of his projection. Several times he’s claimed that I’ll delete his comments or edit mine… and that’s called projection. It’s also what the author of BGR does. Here’s an example of Cybersith1’s projection:
Here’s another example of his projection:
Unlike the author of the BiblicalGenderRoles site, I allow commenters to make their best arguments. I don’t delete comments and I don’t edit my work to make myself look good. I also admit when I get something wrong and explain why I believe I was wrong and what I think the real answer is. I do occasionally ban people when they start acting like Cybersith, but it’s actually rare. The only commenter that’s been banned in a long time is Don Quixote.
Cybersith1 and the BGR author display the same incoherent writing style, the same inability to cite Scriptural support for their opinions and the same churchian attitudes toward women. Cybersith1’s projection tells me that (like the author of BGR) he’d delete comments and edit his work to make himself look good. The question then becomes how Cybersith1 is so convinced that I’m despised at BGR and not welcome there. He’d have to be an administrator to know that.
I have only commented at BGR once (a long time ago) and as far as I know, that comment is still in moderation. Toad’s Hall has only been linked in comments twice and my name is never mentioned on BGR. There are two links provided to this blog in the comments at BGR, which were provided on a positive note of recommendation by one of the commenters. So, the only way anyone could know that I’m despised and not welcome at BGR is to be the person in charge or very close to them.
Interestingly, after this blog was mentioned in the comments last year, the BGR author claimed that prompted him to complete his piece about “premarital sex” and “pre-wedding” sex. He cribbed most of his ideas from this blog in order to write that post but left out the most critical piece. I don’t blame him for leaving it out, because according to the Apostle Paul, he’s a liar.
So… how does Cybersith1 know I’m “despised” and “unwelcome” at BGR unless he’s part of BGR? Is Cybersith1 a sock-puppet of BiblicalGenderRoles? That would explain a lot.
To end this, consider this revealing statement by Cybersith1.
women are naturally rebellious towards male authority and are not attracted to “normal” men,
Cybersith1 doesn’t want to admit he is in competition with other men for the attention of women. He is upset by the idea of game because it gives other men an advantage over him and he doesn’t want to do the work of bettering himself. He blames the women instead.
Men, rejoice. As I pointed out in Five Is Not The Number You Want, most men could work their way into the top 6% with a couple of years of effort. Yet, very few will and Cybersith1 is a living, breathing example of the Christian Hostility To Becoming Attractive. Don’t listen to them, do the work and reap the rewards. And don’t feel guilty at the butthurt you cause fanboys like Cybersith1 when you get the interest of attractive women, the promotions at work and the respect of men and women alike. If men like Cybersith1 are “normal” then you most definitely don’t want to be normal.